His Majesty King Abdullah II on refugees during an interview with CNN’s Fareed Zakaria

Fareed Zakaria: It’s a tough neighbourhood. We have forgotten about Syria and the conflict in Syria, but you are still living with—what is it? Almost one and a half million Syrian refugees?

His Majesty King Abdullah II: 1.3 million Syrian refugees.

Zakaria: 1.3 million Syrian refugees in Jordan, which is a very large percent, when you consider the population of Jordan. Are they ever going to go back? Are you going to be able to have normal relations with Syria and send these refugees back? What happens to Syria?

King Abdullah II: Well, I think the quick answer is refugees are not going to go back any time soon. One in seven Jordanians is a Syrian refugee. One in five Jordanians is a refugee, because again, we have been a host to others. And I don’t think people understand the massive impact, I mean, we have obviously had regional wars, we have had an international economic downturn, the Arab Spring, ISIS, COVID, but the refugees are what really hurt our country.

And our people have had to suffer, so unemployment is very high, I know part of it is COVID, we are slowly coming back to the light, but there are legitimate concerns among Jordanians that life has become very hard. The international community has helped, but I think in the best year, we got what? Forty percent, 45 percent of what we needed, the rest comes from our budget. The Syrians are like any others, are in our school system, they are in our healthcare, over 200,000 Syrians have work permits, so they are part of our society. And if I was a family in Jordan, a Syrian family, and one of the family members says, you know, ‘when are we going back to Syria?’ What are they going back to? And that takes us to the challenge in our discussions with the United States and the Europeans.

Bashar has longevity. You and I have talked about this for many, many years. When people predicted it was going to be several months, I said many years, if ever. And so, the regime is there, and so we have to be mature in our thinking. Is it regime change, or behavioural change? And if it is behavioural change, then what do we do to come together to talk with the regime, because everybody else is doing it, but there is no plan at the moment. And the Russians play a vital role, and without talking to the Russians, how are we ever going to have a narrative that takes us towards the light for the Syrian people?

Zakaria: Would it be fair to say that, in Syria, the United States and those countries that were trying to oust Assad, have essentially lost that struggle, and that the Russians, the Iranians, who are backing the Assad government won?

King Abdullah II: So, again, as I said, the regime is there to stay. None of us is talking to each other on what should be a narrative or dialogue. I obviously, understand from many countries, their anger and concerns of what has happened to the Syrian people, but keeping the status quo, where there is continued violence and the Syrian people pay the price, we have lived that for seven or eight years, so we have to admit that there is no perfect answer, but moving the dialogue forward in a coordinated way is better than just leaving it as it is.

Zakaria: So does that mean a de facto partition, where Assad controls a large part of Syria, but there is a part that is almost a kind of badlands?

King Abdullah II: I think it is baby steps. And again, it is not just Iranian proxies, or the Russians that are there, ISIS is still there; they are defeated but not destroyed. That is something that we have got to remember, to chew gum and walk at the same time when it comes to this issue.

But I think it is looking at the totality. At the moment, there is such destruction in that country. You know, the importance of building schools, or building hospitals, and giving a light. And it is not going to be anytime soon, for Syrian refugees to say ‘OK, I can go back to something’; there is nothing to go back to there. And so, that’s why, we want to get away from violence, and see if we can look at rebuilding. A lot of that is going to be linked with political reform, as far as I can see.

And again, don’t forget, and you are aware, the tragedy that is happening in Lebanon. And what happens in Lebanon or Syria is interlinked. With the crisis in Lebanon—and we are on the verge of a humanitarian disaster there, if that has not already happened—and the difficulties that the Syrian people are facing, we in Jordan could be facing another wave of refugees, God forbid. So these are issues that we need to deal with, if we ignore them, then it is going to take us by surprise.